In this insightful episode of the Global Medical Device Podcast, host Etienne Nichols delves into the journey of Dr. Lee Hunter, an orthopedic surgeon and innovator in elbow surgery devices.
Dr. Hunter shares his experience from the conception of a simple yet effective surgical device through its development, struggles with initial licensing, and ultimate success in the market. The discussion highlights the importance of perseverance, the impact of regulatory insights, and the significant role of strategic innovation in enhancing patient outcomes.
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Key Timestamps
- [00:45] - Introduction of Dr. Lee Hunter and his medical device journey.
- [05:30] - Challenges and breakthroughs in designing elbow surgery devices.
- [14:20] - The licensing journey and learning from initial failures.
- [22:50] - Insights into the current medical device market and innovations.
- [35:40] - Discussion on the importance of simplicity and efficiency in medical devices.
- [48:15] - Future directions in MedTech and advice for new innovators.
Key Takeaways
- Innovation in MedTech: Dr. Hunter's journey emphasizes that true innovation often stems from a deep understanding of specific medical needs rather than broad technological applications.
- Challenges and Resilience: Early failures are often stepping stones to success, highlighting the importance of resilience and adaptability in the medical device industry.
- Future of MedTech: The potential for simpler, more effective devices that streamline medical procedures and improve outcomes is vast, urging current and future innovators to focus on practical and impactful innovations.
Links:
- Hunter Medical Devices
- Dr. Lee hunter on LinkedIn
- Tennessee Orthopedic Alliance
- Etienne Nichols on LinkedIn
Memorable quote:
- "Sometimes the simplest solutions are the hardest to find but the most effective once implemented." - Lee Hunter
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Transcript
Etienne Nichols
00:00:43.660 - 00:01:27.730
Welcome back to the Global Medical Device Podcast. My name is Etienne Nichols. I am the host for today's episode.
Last week I attended the LSI event in Data Point, California, where I want to say about 350 medical device companies came together to pitch to investors their product. You know, they're early-stage companies and they're trying to get their medical devices to the market. Rewind a few, few weeks, maybe months.
I was talking to my doctor, Dr. Lee Hunter, about a potential surgery operation and I found out that he had started a medical device company. So, with me today is Dr. Lee Hunter, a surgeon at the Mid Tennessee Bone and Joint, although I think you've changed names.
But before we get into that, how are you doing, Dr. Hunter?
Dr. Lee Hunter
00:01:28.050 - 00:01:30.450
I'm doing great, Eddie, and thank you so much for having me.
Etienne Nichols
00:01:30.850 - 00:02:15.810
Glad to have you.
The thing that really was interesting to me when we were talking is that you went through your medical device company or built a medical device and you didn't really take on a lot of funding. And that's one thing I want to talk about.
The other thing that really struck me about you is when we were talking and you were looking at the different things that I was doing, I noticed you speak two languages. One, you speak the language of how a physician has to talk to his, his client or, or, or patient.
And then you said, now I'm going to say a lot of Latin. And then you did say a lot of Latin to your assistant, but you actually speak a third language, I'm assuming, and that is the language of business.
So, I'd be curious to hear your journey at how you've came, come to own a medical device and how all that went.
Dr. Lee Hunter
00:02:16.130 - 00:05:25.070
Yeah, well, thanks.
You know, it's, it's, it was kind of an overnight success, maybe 30, 30 years in the making, you know, and I was, honestly, I was, I was fortunate enough to what I would say, fail early, early in the process. And, and basically when I was a, when I was a surgery resident, I started having this almost kind of fetish with elbow surgery. And I had some ideas.
When I was a resident, we had A lot of bad elbows come through the trauma center and we positioned them all in what's called lateral decubitus position to get their elbow well. The positioning took about 30 or 45 minutes sometimes of the case.
And I was even thinking back then, I mean, I was just a kid, you know, that there had to be a better way. And then as time went by, I looked around and industry didn't solve my problem. And then I started doing a lot of elbow arthroscopy. Same thing.
Everybody, the people that did them, did them lateral decubitus. And that took a long time.
So, I just started in the back of my mind trying to figure out a way to basically support a elbow vertically with the patient supine such that you can do fracture care and arthroscopy. So, I started designing some things, filed a patent application, got a patent issued, and I looked around for a company to help me with it and.
Crickets, right? Nobody interested whatsoever in their defense. This initial device was, was kind of clunky and it was kind of a one trick pony.
It was great for certain elbow fractures, great for elbow arthroscopy, but it really was kind of a niche thing.
And you know, there aren't nearly as many elbow cases out there as shoulder cases, you know, and also as a, as a surgeon with a full-time job, you know, you have to. Sometimes you can't even get in the door right to the right person. And back then there was not a, like the LSI conference that you spoke of.
I'm sure those things were happening, but this was around 2008, and they were not on my radar. I was not on their radar. So, I ended up signing a licensing agreement with this general surgery company basically.
And they put this device together and presented it to me and it was not really what I was. They tweaked the design a little bit. It wasn't really what I was after. But they ended up selling us several of these.
And as time went by, I guess after a two-year time period, I felt like it was just not going anywhere.
So, I terminated the licensing agreement, and I took what I didn't like about the device they created and then I went down, back down the rabbit hole again and that's.
And then several years later I came back with this design that I really, that I really liked and I thought could really make elbow surgery better for surgeons and patients and facilities just pastor faster, better, easier. And frankly, Etienne, I was so, so convinced of that that I knew it was going to be a success. It just took me quite a while to convince everybody else.
Etienne Nichols
00:05:25.470 - 00:05:31.630
How long did it take from the time you had the idea to the time you had the product that you wanted to be on the market.
Dr. Lee Hunter
00:05:32.240 - 00:06:32.840
We had the first commercial device of the device that I like. What I thought was where we need to go in 14, I think 2014. And that licensing agreement went from, I want to say maybe 09 to 11.
So, it took a few years off because I had to. I knew what I didn't like, but I didn't honestly know how to get there. I mean, just from a design strategy because this.
I was still tied up, you know, I had to have the design before I went back and funded, however. But, you know, again, I was fortunate enough.
That licensing agreement, I would call it a. I would call it a great, A great success, but really kind of a financial failure company probably didn't make any money off of it. I mean, I got, you know, very little, but it was great in that it showed me a hundred different ways not to do something right. I learned not to.
This is not what you don't want. This is. Anyway, it was a great overall experience, although my wife might not say so, but it was.
Etienne Nichols
00:06:33.560 - 00:06:38.680
People probably pay more for an MBA than maybe what you did for the things that you learned, I would guess.
Dr. Lee Hunter
00:06:39.560 - 00:07:08.410
Yeah. Yeah. It was kind of tough sledding there for a while, but really once we.
I was so convinced that it was going to change things and that elbow surgeons would love it that I just kept on chipping away at it and I went from a. A real rough prototype that a friend of mine that owns a machine shop actually cut for me to then a paying with my own money to.
For someone to make a metal prototype, a stainless-steel prototype that I actually autoclave and use.
Etienne Nichols
00:07:09.050 - 00:07:46.590
I just want to touch on one thing you said you didn't necessarily. Maybe those LSI conferences or other conferences were going on.
Sometimes when I talk to people who have innovative ideas, it's almost like the medical device industry and the people who use those medical devices, they're kind of going along in parallel paths and they don't always cross over. Or at least a lot of the people using those devices or have ideas don't know how to cross over to the. To the other side.
I'm curious what you learned in that process. That if you could go back, you might tell. Tell your former self, hey, this. This would have made life easier if you'd done this, this and this or any.
Any thoughts come to mind?
Dr. Lee Hunter
00:07:47.230 - 00:08:16.050
You know, I honestly believe Eddie and I wouldn't have gone anywhere without that first licensing agreement experience because I knew I had something. But again, that device and it served its purpose.
And we've still got an old version that I use down at our surgery center when all the others are tied up. But I don't think I would have been able to think through the process. Right. I had to get so many data points before I got there.
And keep in mind, during that licensing agreement, I wasn't spending any money.
Etienne Nichols
00:08:16.610 - 00:08:17.090
Yeah.
Dr. Lee Hunter
00:08:17.410 - 00:09:04.380
You know, the company basically developed that for me. I would really say do have faith in yourself but also have some awareness. There's a difference between innovation and real innovation.
And I love picking on the American orthopedic academies. You go through their annual meeting. It's the biggest orthopedic meeting in the world.
You go through this immense exhibit hall, and there's all these now shoulder placement systems and hip and knee replacement systems, and you could almost just kind of change the signs over each desk. I see a lot of innovative marketing campaigns, but, you know, really, is there a lot of innovation? I'd say not. Not from my perspective, anyway.
Etienne Nichols
00:09:04.860 - 00:09:10.780
Just mild iterations. Maybe they made cheaper materials or things like that. Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Lee Hunter
00:09:10.780 - 00:09:21.900
You know, there. There is some. There is some innovation, but I'd say it's grossly overstated. You know, like a different.
The sixth iteration of a compression screw with a slightly different head.
Etienne Nichols
00:09:22.600 - 00:09:22.840
Right.
Dr. Lee Hunter
00:09:23.240 - 00:09:25.640
Is that. Is that really innovation? I mean.
Etienne Nichols
00:09:25.720 - 00:09:29.560
Yeah, it's. It's. Or is it just continuous improvement? Yeah. So.
Dr. Lee Hunter
00:09:29.560 - 00:09:35.720
And, you know. Right. In very slight incremental improvement. Right.
Etienne Nichols
00:09:35.960 - 00:09:38.280
Invalidating my life as a mechanical engineer.
Dr. Lee Hunter
00:09:39.480 - 00:09:42.200
Right. Not much disruptive stuff going on out there.
Etienne Nichols
00:09:42.360 - 00:09:45.400
And there's. There. So, there's another perspective.
Dr. Lee Hunter
00:09:45.400 - 00:09:45.680
Or.
Etienne Nichols
00:09:45.680 - 00:10:21.980
It's almost like a pendulum swing. I mean, you have this over here where a slight tweak is touted as a major improvement.
But then you also have those companies who say, we're going to introduce AI or all these other things, characteristics into a product which almost seems too revolutionary to where it's. That's.
We don't really need that, you know, And I don't know if you've seen that or not in the orthopedic space, but somewhere in the middle is what is the product that you had that not everybody is necessarily drawn to or maybe even recognizes as a necessity. So, I'm curious how you were able to find that sweet spot, if you have any comment there.
Dr. Lee Hunter
00:10:23.500 - 00:11:28.230
I guess I had struggled enough with elbow cases just from a positioning standpoint that I knew what I was after. And I just got focused and I was committed to it. And your first sale is the hardest, right? So, I made the first and I thought, wow, this is okay.
But honestly it was slow, slowed chipping and we, and we end up being, I think we got made, got financially profitable. Maybe the, maybe not till the third- or fourth-year in. I had a great focus on buying inventory that I thought I could sell pretty timely.
You know, I didn't want to get a lot of take on more debt than I had to. But I was fortunate enough that, you know, this, my device was not AI, it was not, it was not anything electronic.
It's actually kind of beautifully simple. Right. It's just stainless steel. So, I did not break the bank financing, and I took a line of credit like most all entrepreneurs.
But I did not, once I realized I was onto something, I didn't seek out a third-party investor.
Etienne Nichols
00:11:28.630 - 00:11:29.750
Yeah, that makes sense.
Dr. Lee Hunter
00:11:29.750 - 00:11:53.040
No, I did initially. But again, but again, you've got to know a certain language to get in the door. Right. Of someone who makes a decision.
And I would say, I'd say that's half the battle just to get someone, ear, someone's ear who has some vision and understands kind of the economic power of what you're talking about. And that took me quite a while to do.
Etienne Nichols
00:11:53.600 - 00:12:16.570
Yeah. What was the difference?
And you know, obviously what a surgeon does and, and, and what you do day to day sounds very different than building a company and building a product. So how did you, how did you exercise that muscle or build that, that ability to, to speak that language?
And is there any advice you can give to others who are kind of in a similar path?
Dr. Lee Hunter
00:12:17.529 - 00:12:48.280
Some. You know, I don't mind sharing with you.
Eddie and I went through college and med school and residency, and I think I had maybe, I mean I had the basic economics, but I had maybe two or three business classes. Yeah.
So, like most people like me, you know, they, they, they train us and they send us out into the woods to get whatever, to the wolves of the business world. But what I knew I was going to, going to found the company and I knew I was going to create this, take it to market.
I actually went back and got an MBA.
Etienne Nichols
00:12:48.600 - 00:12:49.240
Okay.
Dr. Lee Hunter
00:12:49.720 - 00:13:08.090
Just so I could learn a little bit more about the nuts and bolts of putting a company together and running it. And also, so I didn't get, you know, didn't, so I didn't lose my shirt in the process.
It was worth it for me, that experience, not necessarily the initials. Right. But, but the experience. I learned a lot it was helpful.
Etienne Nichols
00:13:09.130 - 00:13:26.810
So, in the medical device industry, I don't know how the MBA was weighted necessarily, but obviously the medical device industry has this big regulatory component. So, I'm curious how you shored up that gap in your knowledge or any advice you have to those, you know, from, from that standpoint, you know, I.
Dr. Lee Hunter
00:13:26.810 - 00:13:29.730
Really don't have any advice. I paid an FDA consultant.
Etienne Nichols
00:13:30.050 - 00:13:31.050
Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Lee Hunter
00:13:31.050 - 00:13:33.410
And I overpaid like everybody else does.
Etienne Nichols
00:13:35.090 - 00:13:36.130
I'm sorry to hear that.
Dr. Lee Hunter
00:13:36.130 - 00:14:02.760
Yeah, right. I mean, it's just reality. Right? It's just what you do. But, but no, we had a quality.
We paid a consultant to list us with the FDA and get our product approved and whatnot. And then we have a, we create a quality system manual.
And you know, we kept it tight and there wasn't a lot to, you know, we were a low, you know, we're a little tiny micro company. So, once we got the nuts and bolts of it together, we could manage that internally ourselves.
Etienne Nichols
00:14:03.240 - 00:14:47.600
Yeah. You know, I actually think that's one of the things that you might be downplaying it a little bit.
But I think something you said in there is actually really powerful if you keep it tight as a small company.
What I've noticed is I, I've actually talked to other companies that may be the same size, but they have somebody who worked at Medtronic or worked at Stryker and so they, whether they pirated those SOPs or pirated that quality manual, now they've got a 40 page quality manual that is, that is just over overshooting everything they need to do. But what you said there is actually really powerful. You built what you needed for maybe overpaid for it and I hate to hear that.
But, but if you build what you need rather than just borrowing from somebody else, that actually usually works out better.
Dr. Lee Hunter
00:14:48.240 - 00:16:40.120
So yeah, we created our system organic, organically under that consultant. And I'm joking, I'm kind of joking about we overpaid. They did a good job for us. But no, it was a good experience.
And I would say a lot of it seems, seems to me I started this as a one trick pony. Right. I knew. Exactly. Took me a while to get there.
But once I, once I had that device and once, I figured out how to make it applicable to all body habituses, right. Kids, adults, large people, small people. Once I figured that out, I thought this, this is going to fly. And I just stayed focused with that.
And what put me over the edge really and started gathering attention of other companies, larger companies kept going to these conferences and surgeons would Come up to me and said, hey, do you have anything that I can do a wrist arthroscopy with? Is there somewhere you can make this? So, I can do wrist arthroscopy because I hate my wrist tow.
And I've been thinking about that in the back of my head for a while, but honestly, that was pretty easy just to bolt on. I mean, I spent a little time designing it, but when we.
When we went from just an elbow product to an elbow and wrist, basically covering everything from the mid humerus to the fingertips, anything you need to do to an arm, you can do it with this device. It's the only.
And then it became the only arm positioner that I'm aware of still now, to date, that's designed exclusively for surgery from the mid humerus to the fingertips. Yeah, I mean, there are things out there that have multiple attachments. Yeah, you can hold a knee with it, or you can hold an arm and do a shoulder.
You can bolt it on the forearm and kind of, you know, jerry rig it and make it work for an elbow. But as far as something that's only designed for arm surgery distal to the shoulder, it's the only device out there.
Etienne Nichols
00:16:40.520 - 00:17:27.099
I read something recently that successful startups are the ones who say, there's a shop down the street that the door sticks every time someone opens and closes it. And people just say, man, that door always sticks. And they just get irritated with it.
And then a woodworker comes through and says, all you got to do is plane the bottom off and. And you got this fixed. So, what's the difference in everybody who walked through that door and the woodworker?
Well, the woodworker works with that thing all the time and he recognizes the need and fixes the need.
So, what you saw was there was this issue, there was a problem, and you're just, for some reason, you're not willing to just put up with the existing tools. You say, well, I'm just going to fix this. So, I'm sure there are others out there who have those sticking points.
How do you get them to turn that part of their brain on to where they recognize those pain points? Any thoughts?
Dr. Lee Hunter
00:17:27.499 - 00:18:03.650
Well, you know, for me, even coming out of residency, I thought in the first I had, I saved these back, the napkin sketches of this thing that would never have worked. But I say them coming out of residency and I thought, well, industry is going to solve my problem.
You've got all these bright people in these large companies. They are going to make an arm system of elbow Surgery that works great. And time went by and is.
And as no one paid any attention to the elbow marketplace, I just, Honestly, I just got more and more frustrated with it. And I think.
I think a lot of other people and surgeons out there, they'll get to a point where they just decide, hey, I'm going to do something about it.
Etienne Nichols
00:18:04.280 - 00:18:04.600
Yeah.
Dr. Lee Hunter
00:18:04.840 - 00:18:32.000
And there is a little bit of risk. I mean, it could have been a.
It could have been a big failure, but I was pretty sure I knew there was nothing else out there that did what this thing did, and I knew there were enough people like me that would use it if they just became aware of it. But it was, you know, I was. And I may have already said this, but I definitely felt like a voice in the wilderness the first couple of years.
Now, I'm not the only one out there who even cares about this. Right, so.
Etienne Nichols
00:18:32.880 - 00:18:41.520
So, you went through the. The licensing and then building your own company and doing it slowly with your own capital. Was there any advice or did you ever that.
Dr. Lee Hunter
00:18:41.520 - 00:18:41.840
That.
Etienne Nichols
00:18:41.840 - 00:18:52.480
That ran counter to that, like get funding or, or anything like that versus, I mean, you mentioned maybe even trying to get funding at one point. What convinced you to say, well, I'm just going to do this myself or.
Dr. Lee Hunter
00:18:53.520 - 00:19:22.010
I don't know, you know, the main thing, it's all, it's all. It's all timeliness.
And I would say that because there were, you know, we've been on the market since 14, and I did an email campaign, and I went to a. I had a booth at a conference every year, usually the hand conference, and I went to the trauma conference a couple times. So. So these companies knew we were out there. I would just say there was very little interest in the elbow world.
Etienne Nichols
00:19:23.050 - 00:19:23.530
Wow.
Dr. Lee Hunter
00:19:23.770 - 00:20:09.070
At least, at least initially. And I would liken it to foot and ankle surgery 20 years ago. Okay, 20 years ago, that there was just.
There was really nothing sexy about foot and ankle surgery. You know, but fast forward to 10 years ago.
And then you've got these companies like, oh, Ortho, Helix and now Paragon and these other companies that are solely foot and ankle. You know, their surgeons love their products. Ankle replacements.
Every company's trying to come up with an ankle replacement now, which when I trained, they weren't even done or very. They had a terrible track record. But now the implants have improved.
And I really think the next 10 years, elbow surgery is going to see that same kind of evolution.
Etienne Nichols
00:20:09.629 - 00:20:17.870
Okay, now if I understand right, you soldier some ip, is that accurate or what? What was the next step for you. How did that work?
Dr. Lee Hunter
00:20:18.910 - 00:20:56.450
I started once we hit a certain, you know, market, whatever capture rate.
Started getting a couple of calls from these companies asking about things and I got a couple of offers to sell the company or to buy the company, rather buy the IP. And what I ended up doing was I kept the company, but I did sell my inventory, and I did sell my IP, which was seven issued patents.
Utility patents, not design patents. And then I sold the, oh, the, the logo and the little tagline that went with the device.
Etienne Nichols
00:20:57.090 - 00:21:03.330
Okay, and what's the difference in a. Just from my own ignorance, a design patent versus a utility patent.
Dr. Lee Hunter
00:21:03.970 - 00:21:14.890
Utility patents refer to the function. Okay, device versus a design patent. Say, you know, I talk about that thread pitch on a screw earlier, right?
Etienne Nichols
00:21:14.890 - 00:21:15.280
Yeah.
Dr. Lee Hunter
00:21:15.910 - 00:21:43.440
So, you take an existing screw and you, you modify a little bit, and you change these variances, and the design is a little bit different. Sometimes you can get a quote, you know, a design patent based just on that.
So, no one can go and reproduce that exact same screw, but they can still do something else to it. So, utility patents, at least in my experience, companies put a lot more weight on those. Easier to defend and more or just more financially valuable.
Etienne Nichols
00:21:43.760 - 00:21:55.040
Yeah, that makes sense. Sounds more powerful. What would be the next step then is do you have other thoughts or ideas that you're per.
Perhaps going to pursue or if you scratch this itch and you're done?
Dr. Lee Hunter
00:21:56.320 - 00:22:22.810
Well, so the, the elbow, elbow arm positioner was my first, my first. Oh. Kind of obsession, I guess. But I've had this other thing in the back of my mind that I started another process a few months ago.
So maybe I'll have more, more to tell you here in the months ahead. Same kind of process. You get a pick out something. Pick out a problem that exists that someone other than you thinks is a problem. Right?
Etienne Nichols
00:22:23.210 - 00:22:23.690
Yeah.
Dr. Lee Hunter
00:22:24.490 - 00:23:04.720
Not to get too infatuated with, with yourself. Right. But, but try to pick out a problem that should be pretty simple to fix.
See the marketplace and there's so much stuff out there that's in the case I'm working on now that I think is so much over engineered. You know, we just need to make things simpler, so the adoption rate is accelerated and so forth. So that's where I'm now.
I've got a few metal prototypes that I'm working with and I'm experimenting with them. And then, you know, another FDA filing, a couple of patents have been filed on this, so it's the standard process.
But this, this is a little bit different because this will Be less expensive to bring to market than my arm positioner system will.
Etienne Nichols
00:23:05.200 - 00:23:11.760
Okay, now that's really exciting. I can't wait. I'll have to have a follow up. Maybe I'll just have another surgery, and we can talk about that.
Dr. Lee Hunter
00:23:12.800 - 00:23:56.020
Yeah, but you know, and kind of like beforehand they'll. You come to a fork in the road when you've got an idea and particularly have a prototype like a proof-of-concept model. Right.
In my world, it's a proof-of-concept model. And once you get that, you do come to a fork in the road and you have to look at it financially, you know, how much is this the real deal?
Are other surgeons in my case going to like it? Can I fund this development myself or do I need an equity partner?
And then do you sell part of it and let a company take it, or do you take it to market yourself? Honestly, if I could have sold my arm positioner back in 2014, I would have done it, no doubt.
Etienne Nichols
00:23:56.450 - 00:23:56.810
Yeah.
Dr. Lee Hunter
00:23:56.810 - 00:24:06.370
But it worked out tremendously better that I didn't. But, but I would have if, if there were any, if there was any interest whatsoever, Eddie and I probably would have.
Etienne Nichols
00:24:06.690 - 00:24:13.650
That's a long time, you know, 10 years, basically. You know, that, that to get to this point, maybe it's a few years ago that you sold the IP, but.
Dr. Lee Hunter
00:24:13.730 - 00:24:14.130
Right.
Etienne Nichols
00:24:14.290 - 00:24:32.350
What if there's someone else? Like, let's say there's someone else at the Tennessee Orthopedic Alliance. I think I said the name incorrectly earlier. Yeah.
Maybe they have some ideas. What advice do you give them when they come to you and say, hey, I've thought about this.
Do you say, go show me how serious you are with a patent or what kind of advice do you give them?
Dr. Lee Hunter
00:24:33.070 - 00:25:17.800
Yeah, you know, I try to encourage them to try to learn what they don't know because that's always, you know, we surgeons, or everybody, particularly surgeons that seem like we are quick to jump to assumptions. Right. Something in our training just makes it. So, if A happen, B happened, then C is obviously going to happen next.
But in the business world, that's not always the case. So, I would say be prepared to spend some money and just understand what you don't know.
And just because you think it's a good idea doesn't always make it a good idea. You need to get some feedback from your peers before you invest a lot of blood, sweat and tears into a concept that maybe it's going to be fantastic.
But, but the numbers are the numbers. You know, it's likely that it may not be yeah.
Etienne Nichols
00:25:18.120 - 00:25:38.790
You know that feedback is hard to take sometimes. And when I say hard to take doesn't.
I'm, I don't mean like I pridefully don't want to hear it, but it's almost as if we literally have a filter up where we, we hear the things that are positive and the, and the, the negative is just, it just goes run through. Is there a way to really teach that to actually sink in or. Any thoughts there?
Dr. Lee Hunter
00:25:39.750 - 00:27:07.110
No, I think you will. Again, it's like Thomas Edison failed what, a hundred times before he made the light bulb or something like that.
Learned a hundred ways or a thousand ways not to do it. I think failure helps. And again, I was fortunate enough to fail early.
So, then you get some realizations, well, maybe, maybe I can learn something from all these people that I'm talking to. But I would still say the, the trick is understanding maybe that you don't have a crystal ball and you're not exactly sure how far it's going to go.
Some years ago, I'm, I remember vividly I Woke up about 2 in the morning with this epiphany of how I was going to make this device. I was struggling with how the different arm sizes, heights of people. I had all the measurements down because I'd record a bunch of measurements.
And how do you make that arm positioner work for say a 6-foot 8 basketball player and a, you know, a 4-foot 10 little elderly lady? Right. And make it fit all in one autoclavable disposable tray. Autoclavable tray. Right. So, you got constraints in there.
And when I, when I woke up and I started diagramming that and I knew I was onto something, honestly, I thought I'd sell that company in a. Within the next calendar year.
It didn't work out, but I learned a lot about the process and I'm sure a lot of people thought I had no idea what I was doing. And I probably didn't in the early stages. But you know, you learn a lot as time goes by.
If you keep your eyes open and kind of listen more and talk less.
Etienne Nichols
00:27:08.300 - 00:27:51.560
I think that's a good lesson that if I could just kind of rephrase it into my own words, that failing fast again, it's one of those lessons that you wash. You think okay, and it washes over you.
But at the same time, I remember when I was writing articles, I would write an article and I thought, man, this isn't any good, but I have to write an article a week. So, my, the guy I was reporting to said, listen, you know why we write this article? So, we can write next week's article.
And sometimes I think maybe that's, that's, that's a similar idea. You know, you fail fast. We're going to, we're going to get to this failure because without.
You can't get to the success without going through the failure. We like to think, well, if I'd done this differently, I would go straight to the success. But maybe you actually wouldn't. Would you agree?
Dr. Lee Hunter
00:27:52.520 - 00:28:41.820
Yeah, I would. Again, that early experience, it helped me peel back the layers of the onion and see what was wrong with my concept.
And once I, once I eliminated all the, all the esoteric things and got focused on exact. It needs to do this, this, this, this, it just became easier.
So, while I was disappointed initially with that, I realized I just had to stop the licensing agreement and go on and do my own thing, you know. But again, it was a. You've gotta, you gotta handle rejection pretty well.
I would say all surgeons or physicians would ever want to be in the medical device business. Right. I mean, from. It seems to me that that's. Everybody thinks, everybody thinks that's really cool and glamorous and all that.
And it is after the close. Right.
Etienne Nichols
00:28:44.140 - 00:28:44.540
Right.
Dr. Lee Hunter
00:28:45.660 - 00:29:14.170
But when you're, but when you're working there, when you're working there in the booth at the big conference, you know, on two kinds of lousy chairs with not much booth traffic initially, problem shedding, it's not that sexy. Right. And you're eating that cold sandwich and everybody else is going and having fun. You're sitting there manning, manning the booth all day.
It's a lot sexy. And that's, that's fun and it's, it's enjoyable engaging other physicians and talking about showing your stuff. Right.
But it's a heck of a lot sexier after the close.
Etienne Nichols
00:29:14.490 - 00:29:40.180
Yeah. And I could totally see that. And that is an interesting observation that a lot of people.
I'm sure you get a lot more of that traffic now from people saying, oh, I'd like to do this, I like to do that and talking about it. Can you talk a little bit about the failures that you're describing? Not everybody is willing to talk about the failures.
I think it's interesting that you keep bringing that up as, as really one of the pillars of your, of your background. Is there any of that standout as specific?
Dr. Lee Hunter
00:29:40.740 - 00:29:43.460
Well, I'd say, you know, you just, you just can't be afraid to fail.
Etienne Nichols
00:29:43.780 - 00:29:44.140
Yeah.
Dr. Lee Hunter
00:29:44.140 - 00:30:17.330
You know, and if the surgeon comes up and says, says Well, I like this, but I don't really like this or this. You know, you can't take that as a personal offense. Right. Take it and say, I appreciate you giving me some honest feedback on it.
We want to hear positive feedback all the time because the negative feedback sometimes kind of hurts or you want to discount it. Right. Like, oh, that's not really right.
People think like I do, but I think the negative feedback is a heck of a lot more valuable than the positive feedback most of the time.
Etienne Nichols
00:30:17.970 - 00:30:32.500
Was there any specific negative feedback that comes to mind? I mean, I'm sure it probably. Sometimes that stuff stings a little bit, but that. Is there any piece that you feel like.
I hated to hear that in the moment, but it was actually really valuable. I'm curious if you have any. If there's anything you can share.
Dr. Lee Hunter
00:30:33.220 - 00:30:38.580
It's like little brief engagements over the conferences, you know.
Etienne Nichols
00:30:38.980 - 00:30:39.380
Yeah.
Dr. Lee Hunter
00:30:39.380 - 00:31:19.450
When you get the, when you get say the older surgeon and comes by and looks at something and say, oh, I would never use that. And I said, well, why would you not use that? And say, well, I use, I do this, this and I always do them like this.
Well, it's more kind of understanding where that, where that reference came from. And then when you learn that again, it's not under not knowing what you don't know.
When you come to find out that he did two elbow surgeries last year, you know, you know, versus, versus 200. Right. It's all, I would say it all seems to be trying to understand what their perspective is. It's a lot of times it's not the same as your own.
Etienne Nichols
00:31:20.350 - 00:31:57.350
So, we have a lot of quality and regulatory and first-time founders in the audience and quite a few other types of vendors and people like that. So, I don't want to, I don't know how many of them reach out to speakers, but I am curious.
Starting a new thought or new venture, are there any specific things you're looking for? Not to try to get you inundated, but I can see two people, two types of people.
The people who listen to this podcast are probably some of the bests who do this. But also, others who are want to get advice is what, what kinds of, I guess brain power are you looking for in the future to shore up ideas?
Dr. Lee Hunter
00:31:58.390 - 00:32:09.190
Well, I would say yeah, I was, I was fortunate enough that my, my day job, really my medical device company was just aimed at making my day job better.
Etienne Nichols
00:32:09.590 - 00:32:10.150
Yeah.
Dr. Lee Hunter
00:32:10.550 - 00:32:29.280
So, I did not give up my day job.
And I think that's really what helped power me through as far as things that I get excited about with innovation or talking to other surgeons, I don't want to see something that's just another, just a differential pitch on a screw. Right.
Etienne Nichols
00:32:29.280 - 00:32:29.760
Yeah.
Dr. Lee Hunter
00:32:29.840 - 00:32:53.540
I want to see something that either makes patient outcomes demonstrably better, saves me time, makes the operation more, makes the process more efficient. That's just what I want.
And if you can give me, if you can tell me that it's faster and patient outcomes are better and it's not exorbitantly expensive, I'm all for that.
Etienne Nichols
00:32:53.860 - 00:32:54.420
Yeah.
Dr. Lee Hunter
00:32:54.500 - 00:33:50.670
Honestly, you know, that sounds simple, but it's tough to find. So that's what I want somebody who's passionate about, about.
You know, this brings up the term value-based healthcare and sometimes I say that such a, such a misnomer, if you will, or a bastardized term, if you don't mind me trying to say. But things that, things that actually streamline the process make outcomes better.
Particularly something that makes things easier for physicians because we have so many.
There's so much noise and interference with physicians practice every day seems like we have a new regulation or a new fee or another haggle with an insurance company every day. It's something. Right.
So, anything that makes the process better, less onerous, improve patient outcomes and makes the process more efficient, that's going to be a winner.
Etienne Nichols
00:33:51.230 - 00:34:05.660
Yeah. Yeah.
If someone's about to cut my foot open, I would, I would hope that they're not just going to really have to be getting into the right position should be the last thing in their mind, I would hope. But, but I know it's right.
Dr. Lee Hunter
00:34:05.660 - 00:34:26.900
And honestly, honestly, Ed, and if you've got all things being equal, your outcome being the same, now you want the medical procedure that's quickest. Right.
I mean, if you got a choice between being under an anesthetic for an hour or under an anesthetic for 30 minutes, for example, with the same outcome. Right. I would take the 30-minute anesthetic procedure.
Etienne Nichols
00:34:27.380 - 00:34:28.500
Yeah, absolutely.
Dr. Lee Hunter
00:34:28.500 - 00:34:32.580
So, I can think of Steve Jobs, I said simple is harder, simple is the hardest, or whatever.
Etienne Nichols
00:34:33.039 - 00:34:33.279
Yeah.
Dr. Lee Hunter
00:34:33.279 - 00:35:01.370
Simpler, it's harder than complex or something like that. So that's what I'm after and that's what I try to seek out in vendors that come to me with our medical practice to sell us items.
Is it going to be easier for our staff to use? It's going to make their job simpler because they have a lot on their plate too. So that's really what I'm, what I look for.
And honestly, I look for stuff that's kind of easy. I mean easy. I mean simple and relatively quick ROI.
Etienne Nichols
00:35:01.930 - 00:35:02.570
Okay.
Dr. Lee Hunter
00:35:02.890 - 00:35:10.890
That, that and what, you know, what are the barriers to entry? How hard is it, how hard is it going to be to get to our end point?
Etienne Nichols
00:35:11.690 - 00:35:12.050
Yeah.
Dr. Lee Hunter
00:35:12.050 - 00:35:21.210
And I try to; I try to keep it just kind of simple. It sounds, sounds silly to say but it's, it's tougher than you might think.
Etienne Nichols
00:35:21.690 - 00:35:40.390
No, I believe it. One last question about the self-funded. I know there's lots of pros and cons. Would you do it the same way again or do you have thoughts, advice?
Have things changed since 2014 in your mind or. It's still possible if you, if you do it a certain way. Any pros and cons?
Dr. Lee Hunter
00:35:41.430 - 00:36:06.240
You know, I would just encourage all the, all the startups out there to hold on to your equity as much as you can, as long as you can because there'll be plenty of opportunities to give away or sell that equity, you know, down the line. You know, the interest rate climate is a lot worse now than it was back when I. Yeah. At my first company line of credit.
So that kind of, that kind of changes the climate a little bit.
Etienne Nichols
00:36:07.040 - 00:36:07.520
Yeah.
Dr. Lee Hunter
00:36:07.680 - 00:36:10.320
So, I don't have any, I don't have any financing.
Etienne Nichols
00:36:10.800 - 00:36:11.200
Sure.
Dr. Lee Hunter
00:36:11.200 - 00:36:41.580
Words of wisdom really the, I would say, you know, work with partners that you can trust. Have all your nondisclosures signed up front.
You know, again, don't, don't assume that everybody around you has, hasn't necessarily good intentions or is just check out your references and things like that before you enter into a business relationship with somebody. Which sounds again sounds silly and simple but, but it's, it seems sometimes that's not necessarily done correctly.
Etienne Nichols
00:36:42.310 - 00:36:47.590
Well, especially if you get a lot of no's in the beginning and then someone says yes. I can see you being excited about that.
Dr. Lee Hunter
00:36:48.390 - 00:37:13.360
Right. I mean you get kind of desperate. Right.
If, yeah, if you're into something, you're super passionate about it, you get turned down by the three or four kind of class A people that you go to. Well then you start going down to the B's and, and the C's and it's, it is nice to resist that temptation.
But I would say hold on to your equity as long as you, as long as you can. If you have the opportunity. Don't give up your day job until you're really sure you got a winner.
Etienne Nichols
00:37:14.000 - 00:37:22.800
Awesome. Well, any last piece of advice for those listening, whether it's first-time founders, anyone in the medical device industry.
Any last piece of advice before we close?
Dr. Lee Hunter
00:37:23.600 - 00:37:59.040
Well, I'd Just say, I just say have faith in yourself and if you're passionate about something, you know, believe in it.
But also understand the, understand the situation, understand your concept, how it fits into, into the marketplace and understand the, the, your allies and your adversaries. Because not everyone, you know, not everyone's going to be your ally.
Even if you've got a, a terrific idea, you're going to get resistance from people and just try to get a good vibe for the, for the, you know, for the least painful path to success and just go with your gut.
Etienne Nichols
00:37:59.280 - 00:38:18.820
It makes sense. Really appreciate it. Thank you for sharing your story and I look forward to potentially seeing you again one of these days.
But I appreciate your willingness to come on the podcast. Those who've been listening to the podcast, you've been listening to the Global Medical Device Podcast.
We'll put some links in the show notes so they can find your organization and maybe reach out.
Dr. Lee Hunter
00:38:19.060 - 00:38:30.480
And I thanks so much. I really enjoyed it and thank you for having me.
And feel free to, feel free to share a link to my website, huntermed.net they can contact me through there if there's any questions I'm helping talk about it.
Etienne Nichols
00:38:30.880 - 00:38:34.000
All right, thank you so much, Dr. Hunter. We'll see you all next time.
Dr. Lee Hunter
00:38:34.800 - 00:38:35.360
Take care.
Etienne Nichols
00:38:36.560 - 00:39:11.730
Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, can I ask a special favor from you? Can you leave us a review on iTunes?
I know most of us have never done that before, but if you're listening on the phone, look at the iTunes app. Scroll down to the bottom where it says leave a review. It's actually really easy. Same thing with computer. Just look for that leave a review button.
This helps others find us and it lets us know how we're doing. Also, I'd personally love to hear from you on LinkedIn. Reach out to me.
I read and respond to every message because hearing your feedback is the only way I'm going to get better. Thanks again for listening and we'll see you next time.
About the Global Medical Device Podcast:
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The Global Medical Device Podcast powered by Greenlight Guru is where today's brightest minds in the medical device industry go to get their most useful and actionable insider knowledge, direct from some of the world's leading medical device experts and companies.
