Announcer: Hey, everyone. Welcome back. Today, with us is Carrie Hobb. Carrie, how are you doing? Glad to have you on the show.
Kari Haab: I'm doing great. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1: Awesome. Well, I'm excited about our topic today. It's one that I don't know that we've gotten into super detail in quite a while, and it's about customer fit, or customer discovery. And I guess before I start firing away with my questions, maybe you can talk to us a little bit about your understanding of the process for customer discovery. And yeah, maybe we could just start there. What are your thoughts?
Kari Haab: Sure. So I'm a little bit of a traditionalist. I was actually trained by the National Science Foundation I- Corps Program. And the intent for the customer discovery is to be able to put together a business canvas model for a startup business to validate whether they have a viable business or not, and they can use that to lobby to investors, but you can take it beyond the business canvas. So really, it comes down to what is your value proposition, and then who is your customer segment? And customer segments can be very broad because your service or technology may service abroad. Or it might be very niche, and you have to drive down to find out exactly who is going to be your beachhead market for your product market fit, and then you have your minimal viable product.
Speaker 1: Okay. So I guess when I think about the development process, I worked in both spectrums. Early on, I was new product development, then I went to manufacturing. So I kind of got to see both sides of that fence. But I'm curious what your thoughts are when you talk about that customer discovery, how soon should someone be thinking about that?
Kari Haab: So I'm a big fan of starting it before you even create a prototype. Because a lot of times when you're doing your customer discovery you're not only learning what the pain or the gain is for the customer and trying to adjust and adapt your minimal viable product to what their major need is so you have a product market. But one of the other things that I like, is that during that process early on, you really start to get what your user needs are, which really starts to play into your traceability matrix when you get into the development phases.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes sense. When you talk about that design controls process, typically engineering wants to own that and marketing will have it as well. I'm sure you've seen several companies, what do you see being the most successful team or approach for that customer discovery? Love to hear your thoughts there.
Kari Haab: That's a great question. So for my very, very small organization, so you're talking about startups, I typically actually encourage the CEO level and the marketing and the R& D person or the engineer to do customer discovery together. They have to go through and make sure that they don't have leading bias questions or that they allow the customer to tell their story, so that you understand the depth of their problems so that when you talk to them, you can explain the value to them. But I find that if you get those three people involved, that you end up with a very successful product or service. Or you identify this isn't going to work and we either have to pivot and fully focus on a different market or pivot and change our technology. Or you're just like, if it's not viable we'll never meet the expected average selling price.
Speaker 1: I wasn't expecting you to say CEO. So that's really interesting. A lot of times they're going out, they're fundraising and especially early stage. I can almost see, just as you were talking through that though, really helping them make those pitches and make those things known. I saw some of your background that maybe you have some experience there. I don't know if you can expound on some of those aspects as far as it being a benefit.
Carrie Hobb: Sure. So I will tell you a story as to what really solidified me into this should be mandatory for any startup. And when I actually do due diligence for Cantilever, I check to see if they've done customer discovery. But my story is that I started with a startup and it was super successful. It exited for over$ 200 million. And during that transition with the larger company, I actually ended up staying, I took a more of a leadership role with the larger company, realized that larger companies aren't my thing. So I stepped back into a startup and the startup was well funded, it had$ 9 million. They had done customer discovery, but then they deviated from their findings to accommodate what they thought they could do or what they thought they could afford, which was an interesting approach. But I didn't realize it when I started there. And so when we finally started going out to conferences and doing a deeper dive into the customer discovery realized very quickly the product that we were nearly to put to market wasn't what the customer wanted or needed.
Speaker 1: Oh no. Yeah.
Kari Haab: Yeah.
Speaker 1: That's not when you want to find... Well, you never want to find that out, but especially not when you're getting ready or deeper.
Kari Haab: Yeah, yeah. But to answer your question, I think that customer discovery can literally start at any point. I have a company right now that I just completed a six month customer discovery for them, and it's more around what the validation testing needs to look like for their customer.
Speaker 1: Okay. When you do that customer discovery for a client, what does that actually look like?
Kari Haab: That's another great question. So I always require at least one person from the company to participate with me. And it's because it's one of those where one, you want to teach it. You want people to be able to adopt and move forward with it even beyond this experience. But also because it's really important for somebody within the company to hear the customer say what they're saying and how you're pulling it out without leading bias. Because it's a human trait that you want people to reinforce what you think. Because if you don't do that, if you don't have somebody from the company, you still have pushback as to, well, the one person here told me. And you can't say, " Well, how did you ask them?" So it's required at least one person from the company join me, depending on how big the project is how many people actually have to participate.
Speaker 1: Okay. So I'm going to kind of go the other direction then. I've seen several pitches in the last several months and I remember one stands out in my mind where I saw an early stage startup pitching to an investor, and it was primarily engineers. They were basically technology looking for a problem. And I'm sure you've seen that. Everybody's seen that at some point, but you probably even more so I'd love to hear what your thought is. How do you pull that back? Because when I think of customer discovery, it seems like even if you're going and doing some remediation, you probably have to have some foothold of a problem that we're going to dive deeper or a pivot or something. How do you handle it if you have a technology looking for a problem?
Kari Haab: Yeah, that's always an interesting problem. So you typically sit down and you do a brainstorming. You're just like what could this technology be used for? And then once you identify, okay, what can it be used for, you identify your customer segment and then you start your customer discovery with that segment. If after 30 interviews they're like, " There's no way." Then you're like, " Okay, let's go to the next on the list. Let's do 30 interviews with this group and find out if it's potentially viable." I typically find that you have to do over 70 interviews before you really have a very strong confirmation from that particular segment. Especially in an instance where you have in a technology looking for a problem.
Speaker 1: Now, when you go through those interviews, and I hope this isn't a dumb question, but what do those interviews actually look like? The 30 interviews that you go through?
Kari Haab: Sure. So you build a hypothesis. So it's a scientific approach, especially when it's kind of a deep technology, it makes it easier. And a scientific approach makes it easier for engineers to jump on board. So you make your hypothesis, I think this customer will need this to improve this by this much. So once you have your hypothesis, you create some open- ended questions just so that when you get in the interview, you don't get stumped. It's very much a conversation. So you could completely go off board of what your questions are, but you always have a backup. So you get in you are super grateful that they joined you, and you just start to say, " Can you tell me about"... Let's say that it is some medical device background. Let's say that it is something to do with needles... " Can you tell me about how you make decisions around the equipment that you use to collect blood?" And so they'll start to talk through or ask more questions of what are you looking for, but you try not to lead them that way. A lot of times they'll just start talking and then you dig in and they'll say, " Well, we picked this one because of this." And we're like, " Well, why?" And they'll typically say, " Well, cost." Do you ever look at it as performance? What are the key criteria that you're looking for? So you do it without saying, " Is it because it's easier for the patient?" Or you try not to ask those questions and you try to keep it broader, but direct them into what you want to discuss.
Speaker 1: Yeah, try not to lead the witness, I guess.
Kari Haab: Yeah.
Speaker 1: It's that keyword discovery and not I guess... I don't know what the alternative word was. Customer showing or something like that, leading them. Okay. Do you ever see people do it poorly? And are there things people really kind of mess up at that you wish that people, I don't know, what do you think?
Kari Haab: Absolutely. Now I'll be honest with you, I still do.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Kari Haab: Because especially when you get into those really tough interviews where people just aren't talking to give you minimum information, you really start to feed them a little bit more. And it's a bad habit. So you don't want to say, " Do you like this product because of the quality?" Because that's a yes or no, and everybody likes quality. It's kind of a no brainer. As part of planning where we teach small courses about... And we do a lot of practicing where we have actually teams question each other and interview each other and we provide a lot of feedback. A lot of it is just leading and bias. So you don't want to be biased and you don't want to be leading.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Are there specific biases that you see more prevalent than others in these conversations?
Kari Haab: Yes, I built a product, they will love it.
Speaker 1: Yep. I can totally see that. I can totally see that. Well, kind of building on that then, what would you say constitutes... Okay, in my background, I've always heard that the best engineering is taking away everything that doesn't need to be there and what you have left if it still meets the user need, that's your best situation. That being said, at some point you got to shoot the engineer. I hate to use that term being one myself, but what constitutes a minimum viable product? How do you get to that point from those questions?
Kari Haab: Sure. So I mean, like we talked, so when you're finding out your value prop, you're finding out what the customer actually cares about. And your key value proposition that you're going to pitch to your investors is going to be a lot loftier. But all of the little value propositions, all the benefits that your product can bring will be part of the minimal viable product within reason. You want the top important 10. You also have to meet the minimum specifications that could be your competitive product. And so when you start to talk about the user needs, one of the most efficient companies I've ever worked for is that when they would have their weekly meetings, the insurance would be talking about what they're working on, it would always be a question, does that come back to a user need? Does that come back to a user need? To your point, it's the most efficient way to stay within the minimal viable product because engineers love the engineer and they come up with amazing things. But to your point, a startup can't afford an amazing thing. They need the minimal viable product, get the feedback and turn the next version.
Speaker 1: I'd love to hear if you have any thoughts, I'm just kind of imagining in my own... Or if you have any specific examples. I'm just going to throw out one that maybe you can say yes or no while you think about it. If I was to imagine maybe there's a software that does, I don't know, on your iPhone, you can do eye tracking software to determine your level of pain. That's one that there's a lot of money around pain. So just suppose someone was able to do that. And your user need was to determine the level of pain, but the engineers are focused on sticky footers and really cool looking buttons. I mean, that's gold plating. Maybe we care about that as far as the user needs to be able to interact appropriately with it. But I assume that would be something, I don't know, you probably have better examples. Do you have any examples or am I off base there?
Kari Haab: So one of the companies where we really struggled and when I realized that were weren't hitting the minimum viable product is that the number one thing was, is that we heard it had to be consistent repeatedly. And there was very little room for it to not be acceptable. And to do that, there were a lot of engineering things that had to go into it, but then there was a focus on the software, and the software had nothing to do with its ability to repeat itself consistently. And so it was one of those where we have to focus on this. And that was one of the things that ended up really biting us in the end is because one of the key features that we needed wasn't there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay. That makes sense. So what are some other specific things that maybe if we even go upstream of talking to that customer segment, the actual market fit or the market that you decide to go forwards or pursue, do you have any recommendations for companies when it comes to looking at those things?
Kari Haab: Sure. So I mean, if you're just trying to do your first initial pass of who should I even be talking to on customer segment, do I think this is good for. One is, I always encourage individuals to put as many ideas down on paper before they ever get started. And it's because sometimes you get stuck with, this is who my target audience is, and you don't move. So get everybody on paper. What you do then is that typically somebody would go back and say, " Okay, the market sizes, this is the number of competitors in the field, here are the barriers for entry." And then you also look at who do we think has the biggest pain? And you kind of balance those two. But the people with the biggest pain are typically your early adopters. And sometimes even if it's not the biggest market and the best fit, but they really have a problem that your product can solve, go to that beachhead market, get your feedback, and then launch launched your other ones.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So it's another flip side to this. When you were talking there, it kind of made me think of the human factors side of it. So human factors is more, I don't know, I suppose it's really making what you have fit the customer or fit that problem. But they're similar. You want to determine what the true problem is so that you can solve just that problem. Maybe you can do extra things, but first and foremost is solving that true problem. So that's sometimes hard for engineers to engineer to the problem versus engineer to a solution. I don't know if what your thoughts are. You know, I'm also curious how you even came to this point where you're such an advocate for the customer. I don't know if you can go either direction there. Yeah, sorry to interrupt.
Kari Haab: Yeah. No, it's multiple ways. Okay. So when I started, I started out in operations and I actually when I first got out of school I was in quality. And then I moved to supply chain and was in operations and I was at that startup at Accuri Cytometer. And when we got procured and they notified us they were shutting our building down, I was like, " Well, if you want me to stay, I need something else to do because I just need"... And so they gave me a project to do, which was a research use only device to launch that as a program manager. And because I was one of the few programs that actually launched on time within budget, they actually offered me a longer term position-
Speaker 1: Good job.
Kari Haab: ...as a what they call the core leader, which was basically a senior program manager in the training ground to become leadership management. And so when I got into that and I started working with, I had this lovely marketing woman that worked with me and watching her do customer discovery really started to make things click of watching our device be developed when we were a startup. And then listening to her questioning, it made the link for me. So when I left there and went to the other company and I was told that they had done their customer discovery, they had a very long list of user requirements only to find out that they had adapted them to what was acceptable for the company, which is not what user requirements are intended to be. So that failure, I'm not a fan of failure. So I actually decided that I was going to take a good two to three months to reflect on that experience and find out what I could have done differently or what the company could have done differently. And it came down to the user requirements. And shortly after that, I actually became a mentor in residence at Western Michigan University where I was introduced to the formal process by the National Science Foundation. And I've gone to the National I- Corps program multiple times with different teams from Western Michigan University.
Speaker 1: So you mentioned that user need, that's where the breakdown happened specifically because those user needs, they kind of transition them from true user needs, almost turning them into company needs. Or I wonder, do you have a specific example that you can give how that can happen?
Kari Haab: Sure. So prime example is that they used, because it was histology, so they used the wax blocks with tissue samples in them. And our equipment was meant to help automate the sectioning of these wax blocks to be put on slides for pathologists to review. And when they were going through it, they had seven key tissues that needed to be done. And then when I started doing customer discovery at the conferences, realized that the very first key, most repeated tissue wasn't on our list. And I asked why. And they said, " Well, it costs too much."
Speaker 1: I see.
Kari Haab: So all of our verification and our development and everything else, they didn't want to put it on the list because it cost too much to run the samples.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Economics gets in the way probably more often than it should. That's interesting. Okay. Trying to think here. What did you learn when you started going through the national, or after that experience, you were reflecting on those user needs and things. Did you come up with a better process to establish those user needs? And maybe there's a couple different ways to look at this. User need, like true user need versus company need, that makes sense to me. But there's still a difficulty in the industry as far as how do I make a user need that is one that I can validate, but that's also, it's abstract, but it's not too specific, but it is specific enough. It seems like it's a bit of an art. I wonder if you can speak to some of that.
Kari Haab: Yeah, so that is an interesting question. So for user needs, I'm a big fan of constantly validating them, because situations change, environments change. And so just validating them whenever you have a chance, talk to a customer. It doesn't have to be a super focused thing.
Speaker 1: So what do you mean by constantly val... What's your definition there?
Kari Haab: Oh, so if you have a user need that says that it needs to produce or it needs to be accurate 99% of the time. Like when you're talking to a customer at a conference or if you run into somebody with a job title that's relevant, you do the, " Well, how accurate is the current one? Do you ever have experience with this?" And so you can always, without pointing to the fact that you have a technology, it could be just be curious. And keep asking the questions. And if they come back and say, " Well no, our current one's only like 93%." And you're like, " Really, does that bother you?" And you start to get into is it actually a problem? That's the other thing is that people will start at 93%, and be like, " Great. If I hit 95, I'm good." But the question is, is that is 93% acceptable?
Speaker 1: That's a really good point. Because when I first thought of that validating your user needs, I thought you meant constantly putting your device in front of someone saying, " Hey, does this meet the user need?" That's a different type of validation, obviously. I love that. I love if you have any other thoughts or examples about how to do that, but what you gave is great, but I'm a little greedy here I guess.
Kari Haab: I'm trying to think. So the other big problem that people often run into is the business cares about the cash. What can I sell it for versus what are my cost of goods? The other big piece that's often, this is distribution level. Is that the company has an assumption as to how the product should be distributed. So is it they want to do third party, they want to do direct ship. And if you start talking to large hospitals, they have contracts with large distributors. And if you can't get a contract with a large distributor, you don't get a contract with the hospital. And so understanding down to that level. So if you say, I have to distribute this product to this customer in this condition, so if it has to be sterilized, but you don't know how it gets to the customer. You have to know your full, well, what the system calls is the ecosystem. It's not just who buys, who decides, who influences, who sabotages, but everybody in between that process.
Speaker 1: Wow, that's a really good observation because if I can see myself thinking, okay, I've got a surgical instrument, it's going to be sterilized. I care about the ergonomics, I care about maybe even the packaging at the moment. But if the hospital's the one who buys all of those things, yeah, that makes sense. You got to think about that that's actually part of the customer almost from a company from our standpoint. Okay, that's a really good point. I love that. I don't think that I've actually heard anyone talk about validating the customer needs continually, whether you're at a show, whether you're talking to somebody, as far as making sure those are the right user needs. That's really good. It's powerful. Okay. So do you have any other thoughts about how you actually go about determining all of those things? And maybe that's a no- brainer if I think surgeons, okay, they work in hospitals. How do you go about feeling out that ecosystem to make sure that you've considered all those things? And I hate to put an add on question right now, but once you do, would I put that into my user needs or immediately start applying that to my design controls as far as distribution and things like that? I don't know, however far you want to go there, but maybe we could start with the ecosystem.
Kari Haab: Yeah. So for the ecosystem, interesting question. So one of the companies I did a project for, for customer discovery, we were trying to identify who would be the beachhead market. Who is it that we need to target? And we had a customer segment of, we thought that paramedics or it was going to be ERs and hospitals. And then we got into it and there's many different sizes of hospitals. So locally at the University of Michigan, they're huge versus Charlevoix, it's a very small hospital, and who would actually use the equipment would be significantly different. And then their purchasing process was completely different. And so then you have to sub segment. So logically it would make it easier for us if we went to a smaller hospital because the process is easier for acceptance and the individuals that are using it, were going to be higher trained, so you have a higher success rate. And so when we started to talk to them about how do you receive product, ended up that they were part of this global, or not global, but a larger network of hospitals that negotiate purchasing together. And so it became, okay, it wasn't just them that we had to talk to, we had this big group of people that negotiate contracts for very small hospitals. So I don't know if that answered your question or if I went off the rails.
Speaker 1: No, no, I think you nailed it. I mean, it's almost as if you start just saying, " Hey, big hospital versus small hospital small's going to be easier." But then if you go up the chain, that person's distributing still large contracts, then maybe it starts to become somewhat similar to that large hospital and you don't want to cut them out. That's probably a gross simplification of what you just said, but I think I get it. That's a really good point. I love that. What else am I missing? Sometimes with customer discovery, I don't know what I don't know. So what are other things that you see people constantly maybe getting wrong? Pitfalls people get into.
Kari Haab: People doing five interviews and thinking they have it. It's extremely common for people to do the N of one. Like, " I heard this." And it was from one person. And I'm to the point now where I do instruction that we make them create a database and they have all their hypotheses and I make them keep tabs of who either supported or didn't support their hypotheses. Because I find that when people can see three people didn't agree with it, but the one did, they should probably listen to the three. Or let's look at the one, why are they different and can I find more of those people? So it's really the confirmation bias, not getting enough numbers. Numbers are key. The other one is don't call the CEO when you start. If you start very much at middle management, and because they're more likely to talk to you and you can get the root cause before you start to move up the food chain, you're going to get it wrong. I always tell people, you're going to get it wrong the first two weeks, but then once you get more comfortable with it, week three, you typically start to iron out all of the things so you can start to move up the food chains to the higher ups that you're interested in.
Speaker 1: Okay. That's a great tip. Starting in the middle and then working up and down, whichever direction you need to go. That makes sense. Have you seen, this might be completely off topic, it's totally fine if we want to punt on this, but I've actually started her hearing previously champions or influence. I don't know what the correct PC term is at the moment as far as who is championing your product, but it had previously been a physician or a surgeon and so forth. But now a lot of companies are more interested in the voice of the nurses or those more boots on the ground in the hospitals and things like that. Is it is a similar process as far as going through middle management and then accessing those people in a similar way?
Kari Haab: Absolutely. So one thing is that if somebody in an interview ever mentions somebody else that needs buy- in, you absolutely need to talk to people in that level. You typically can start with managers in that level, but it's also good to talk to people who actually have hands- on experience with the patient in that particular use case. I've been told multiple times in different customer discovery activities of, " Well, if you don't get the nurse's input, product will die."
Speaker 1: Yeah, my wife is a nurse, I believe it.
Kari Haab: Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting how much technology is pushed on the nurses and without their buy- in and then it not working out. So very key piece to the ecosystem, even if they're not decision makers.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes sense. You mentioned that confirmation bias when you're teaching those things and how to do that, it makes sense totally to get more information. You mentioned 30 a couple times, is that kind of the magic number for you?
Kari Haab: No, 30 is the beginning. 30 is just the beginning.
Speaker 1: Okay. Okay. Glad I asked.
Kari Haab: So I typically push people for a minimum of 50. I really like to see 70. If you get 100 then there should be very little question of your business canvas as a whole. But your value prop, you can narrow it down pretty quickly around 30 to 40, but you really to confirm it you would want 50.
Speaker 1: And this might get really tactical, but how do you go about getting that many voices who are... I don't... yeah.
Kari Haab: Yeah. That's the trick. One is that, so the companies that I work with often have a network of people that they are linked with. I typically will talk to what I call the friendlies first. They know the technology typically. So I typically don't count their feedback because they have an emotional investment in making sure it's successful. I ask them, who else should I be talking to? And then they'll start to give me names that weren't on the friendly list and therefore I can start going after those. That's one way. Another is that if you're targeting an industry and there's some key industry leaders there that you really need their input on, I'll be honest with you, I go to LinkedIn and I look at people and I find job titles that I like. And then I sleuth until I find emails and then I email them very directly and talk to them. I'm doing research for new product and you're an expert in your field and really appreciate any feedback you can provide. Just 15 minutes. I always say 15 minutes, they typically always give you 30, but I always try to be respectful of their time.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And I guess you find a lot of success with that, that direct reach? That's cool.
Kari Haab: Yeah. A lot of the teams that I instruct always want to reach out through LinkedIn because it doesn't feel as aggressive to them and it has the worst return rate. People rarely respond by via LinkedIn.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay. I can especially see that being in that field. Medical professionals, maybe they don't necessarily see the value. I actually talk to a lot of doctors who maybe they have a LinkedIn, but they don't actually do anything with it. So that makes sense. Okay. Cool. That's really good. I appreciate you talking to me about this today. What am I missing? Anything else? Anything you'd like to talk to tell our audience when it comes to customer discovery? I love that you have, I don't want to call it a magic number, there's no such thing, but 100. I thought 30 was a lot.
Kari Haab: No.
Speaker 1: But we're talking knowing your customer. That's really what it boils down to. So it sounds like-
Kari Haab: Yeah. Yeah. And to be honest with you, when you go to a conference, I mean, you can easily talk to 30 people, but then, I mean, you're looking at a very focused group and you don't get the full ecosystem. So it's not just talking to the people that are going to use your product. It's not just talking to the people that are going to buy the product. Which by far is really critical that I find that that's missed often, is that they just go to the user and they don't understand the manager's needs to be able to bring that product in. But yeah, it's not just your user. You have to understand, you have to understand their entire ecosystem as to how your product would get to them, how it would be accepted by them, how it would be trained. It's the whole gamut. And there's multiple different ways to build that out. But that's really what I would say is that customer discovery is really key. You can get your user needs out of it. You can constantly validate it. And then know your customer.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So you've really kind of like... Well, sorry. You've really kind of broadened my perspective to a certain degree, because I'm sure a lot of us think of our customer as the end user. But let's just say like an endoscope, for example, in a gastroenterology clinic, maybe the physician is the one using that scope, but then the nurse is the one who's going to clean it and reprocess it. Maybe someone else is going to service it. All of those people are in your customer scope based on what it sounds like I'm hearing.
Kari Haab: Yep.
Speaker 1: That's really, really interesting. Eye opening.
Kari Haab: Yeah, it's actually nurse anesthesiologist that use inaudible.
Speaker 1: Nurse anesthesiologist. Okay. Yeah. Hey.
Kari Haab: Sorry. Personal experience with that one.
Speaker 1: No, that's fine. Yeah, I'm sure a lot of people will... Yeah, that's interesting.
Kari Haab: So anyway, yes, it's more important than just the user.
Speaker 1: Okay, very cool. Well, thank you so much. Well, where can people find you to see what you're doing and to learn more about maybe this process and the process that you teach?
Kari Haab: Sure. So I apologize our website's down right now, but it would be cantileverbpforbusinesspartners. com and otherwise I could be reached through LinkedIn with, just my name is fine.
Speaker 1: Okay. All right. Maybe you'll be one of the exceptional for you who actually respond on LinkedIn.
Kari Haab: I always respond on LinkedIn.
Speaker 1: We've got to spread that aspect. But yeah, we'll put links in the show notes so that people can find you and find out what you're doing. Maybe by the time this episode is out, everything will be all ready to go. So very, very cool. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Carrie. I enjoyed this conversation. And for those of you listening, thank you for listening to the Global Medical Device Podcast. If you're interested in an end- to- end solution in how you can help your product get to market safer and faster and more efficiently, go over to greenlight. guru. Check out the Med Tech Lifecycle Excellence platform that we're producing over there. Thank you for listening. We'll see you all next time.
